Curse

The Real Avalon · Jun 18, 2007, 11:24 AM // 11:24

/signed
we got the amount of faction we got, no matter where we put it in, it should add for the title

greenthumb · Jun 18, 2007, 11:29 AM // 11:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick Smit

Because maybe in the future titles are gonna mean something, now u say survivor is worthless, but maybe it will change in GWEN or GW2,

If ANet did something like that with the survivor title, whoever made that call could probably be regarded as certifiably insane. That just seems like a no-brainer as far as upsetting players.

Kratos Angel · Jun 18, 2007, 11:35 AM // 11:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Real Avalon

/signed
we got the amount of faction we got, no matter where we put it in, it should add for the title

No, no and no. I totally disagree, I don't see why people that were farming points to earn money with amber or jade should have as points as those who farm for their guild, to help others, not thinking only to money.

Patrick Smit · Jun 18, 2007, 11:35 AM // 11:35

Well this change is upsetting people too, not? I really don't care what they do. I would prefer less of a grind title track then retroactive gain of title through getting materials. It would be equally unfair to the ones who did go for the title, as they miss out on amber. Unlinking it from the title (as some people suggested, befriending quest would be enough), or changing the stats in the title track dramatically (as i suggested before) is the best solution to my opinion.

Shadis · Jun 18, 2007, 11:43 AM // 11:43

A lot of people are missing the point entirely. Especially those that have their titles and are somehow acting like they had amazing foresight that these titles would be worth the MASSIVE grind they require to get. They did NOTHING, there was no indication that they would ever do anything and most people are not in alliances that have the slighest hope of owning a town, so why not get Amber/Jadeite with their Faction?

I've never see anyone of them answer that question. The fact is that we were all taken off guard by these skills, we were given no warning that it might be a good idea to start building up those titles and now people are upset about it. Grinding should not be rewarded in terms of having skills that are very powerful. A.net needs to rethink this Kurzick/Luxon thing and no matter how much Faction Farmers complain it doesn't change that fact.

Edit: Oh and I find it extremely lame that in order to even get these skills at their lowest power level in a REASONABLE timeframe, I'm basically reduced to exploiting the game via FFF, the only way to gain faction fast.

AB takes forever to get into a game, even then victory is not assured, Aspenwood is filled to the brim with leechers even moreso than before, Quarry is a wasteland...

Niila · Jun 18, 2007, 11:52 AM // 11:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kratos Angel

/notsigned
The title has became much easier to do, you can now progress your title when transfering to your guild, when you buy amber or jade, when you buy skills etc... It now works for the title track, wtf do you want ? You want to be R10 kurzick/luxon with playing 2 or 3 ab ?? No really
/notsigned, definitely

As it now works for title track, why couldn't the materials we bought in the past count? That's what we want.

greenthumb · Jun 18, 2007, 11:55 AM // 11:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick Smit

Well this change is upsetting people too, not? I really don't care what they do. I would prefer less of a grind title track then retroactive gain of title through getting materials. It would be equally unfair to the ones who did go for the title, as they miss out on amber. Unlinking it from the title (as some people suggested, befriending quest would be enough), or changing the stats in the title track dramatically (as i suggested before) is the best solution to my opinion.

What's happening here pales in comparison to what would be the case if something similar was done with the survivor title. With that title track, once progress is lost, a character can never (as in impossible), regardless of grind, etc., achieve ranks in that title. It would be lunacy or idiocy to do something like that.

In any event, ANet should address this issue pertaining to the new Luxon/Kurzick skills. It seems like something done with the best of intentions to improve and enhance the game, but just without thinking through all the considerations in how it should be made available to players.

william1975 · Jun 18, 2007, 01:16 PM // 13:16

If they did any kind of retroactive thing they would have to compensate both sides, fo the choices they made, It's quite simple,

If you traded for amber/jade then you get the title points for it,

If you traded for the title then you should get amber/jade in that amount

This is the only fair solution other than do nothing, which I still think is the right thing. New players don't get any benifits towards these titles, so they are in a similar position to those that traded faction for Materials. they have to grind to get the title. Is it even possible for those without the Factions campaign to get these skills? if not is it fair to them?

As I stated before I'm happy for it to stay as it is, but if they do change something then both sides of the factions community need to be compensated, that is only fair.

DeBron · Jun 18, 2007, 01:31 PM // 13:31

People who traded faction for amber/jade recieved rare materials.

People who donated faction helped their alliance and made progress in their titles.

These are the choices that people made.

Only one of the choices affected the "Friend of" title. Retroactivity would be fair.

greenthumb · Jun 18, 2007, 01:34 PM // 13:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by william1975

If they did any kind of retroactive thing they would have to compensate both sides, fo the choices they made, It's quite simple,

If you traded for amber/jade then you get the title points for it,

If you traded for the title then you should get amber/jade in that amount

This is the only fair solution other than do nothing, which I still think is the right thing. New players don't get any benifits towards these titles, so they are in a similar position to those that traded faction for Materials. they have to grind to get the title. Is it even possible for those without the Factions campaign to get these skills? if not is it fair to them?

As I stated before I'm happy for it to stay as it is, but if they do change something then both sides of the factions community need to be compensated, that is only fair.

ANet doesn't have to do anything. They don't have to try to go through massive hoops to try to do what's fair for everyone. Some group will wind up being a relative "loser". Of course, you just don't want it to be you, even if your perceived "loss" is relatively minimal in comparison.

As for those without Factions, I would think one of the reasons for these Kurzick/Luxon skills is to add something new to Factions (to reward those who have it and to encourage others to purchase it if they haven't). There's no fairness issue there. Each campaign provides a different set of benefits.

There are probably a lot of ways to address this. I think as some players have suggested, one approach to consider might be to apply a discounted ratio of Faction earned (percentage of Faction Earned minus Faction Donated) towards the alliance/allegiance title tracks. Those who donated outright will still be ahead, and those earned lots of faction, but bought jade/amber don't feel totally screwed by how these new skills work.

Completion of the quests, Befriending the Luxons/Kurzicks, probably would be a much better qualification to obtain the skills rather than rank 1 of the title tracks. Thus no grind necessary to get the skills (just incredibly massive grind in improving the effectiveness). It makes a lot of sense roleplaying-wise. It would also address some abuse issues since those alliance/allegiance titles are account-based rather than character-based.

kc2000ss · Jun 18, 2007, 01:39 PM // 13:39

If faction is given to those who took amber I think it would be necessary to give amber to all those who gave faction to guilds.

not signed/

william1975 · Jun 18, 2007, 02:17 PM // 14:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeBron

People who traded faction for amber/jade recieved rare materials.

People who donated faction helped their alliance and made progress in their titles.

These are the choices that people made.

Only one of the choices affected the "Friend of" title. Retroactivity would be fair.

This is simply quite wrong, I donated 90% of my faction and it did not help any guild i have been in and none have faction farmed, or even bothered with AB, the only benifit i gained from donation is title progression. Those going for amber/jade got the material, which could be traded for gold or turned into armour. What you are imply is that those that chose amber/jade should get title progression while i get no amber/jade. That is not fair at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenthumb

ANet doesn't have to do anything

I didn't say they had to. I in fact said I didn't want them to do anything

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenthumb

Some group will wind up being a relative "loser". Of course, you just don't want it to be you, even if your perceived "loss" is relatively minimal in comparison.

I don't see why, if anet did implement a retrosctive procedure, why there has to be any losers. What you are suggesting is that I should see losing 400 amber/jade as minimal if those that took amber/jade get a retroactive title boost, of any kind. Anet likes to be percieved as implementing fair and balanced upgrades, to maintain that image it is necesary that any retroactive steps are applied equally to both sides of the equation. even if its only partial on both sides. So, for example, if you could have had 1 million faction and only get 500k in an retroactive update, I should get 200 bits of amber/jade, that way we both get compensated for our choices before the update.

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenthumb

As for those without Factions, I would think one of the reasons for these Kurzick/Luxon skills is to add something new to Factions (to reward those who have it and to encourage others to purchase it if they haven't). There's no fairness issue there.

The point I was making was not that they are being treated unfairly, it was with regard to the original point that it was unfair that some had access to higher end Faction skills due to going for title progression rather than materials, and that it would make it difficult for the latter to gain groups in PvE. My point was that those without Factions don't have the skills at all, and that that could be seen as unfair to them.

Aera Lure · Jun 18, 2007, 02:29 PM // 14:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeBron

People who traded faction for amber/jade recieved rare materials.

People who donated faction helped their alliance and made progress in their titles.

These are the choices that people made.

What's with the and? The reality is simple:

People who traded faction for amber/jade recieved rare materials.

People who donated faction made progress in their titles. Helping their alliance was a consequence of title advancement. Was simply the way the title worked.

These are the choices that people made, and they were perfectly equal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kc2000ss

If faction is given to those who took amber I think it would be necessary to give amber to all those who gave faction to guilds.

Absolutely.

Rocky Raccoon · Jun 18, 2007, 02:40 PM // 14:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kratos Angel

No, no and no. I totally disagree, I don't see why people that were farming points to earn money with amber or jade should have as points as those who farm for their guild, to help others, not thinking only to money.

I totally agree, people who were looking to make money were only thinking of themselves. Those who donated to a guild were not only thinking of themselves, if they now get the title it is a reward for not being selfish.

greenthumb · Jun 18, 2007, 04:31 PM // 16:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by william1975

I don't see why, if anet did implement a retrosctive procedure, why there has to be any losers. What you are suggesting is that I should see losing 400 amber/jade as minimal if those that took amber/jade get a retroactive title boost, of any kind. Anet likes to be percieved as implementing fair and balanced upgrades, to maintain that image it is necesary that any retroactive steps are applied equally to both sides of the equation. even if its only partial on both sides. So, for example, if you could have had 1 million faction and only get 500k in an retroactive update, I should get 200 bits of amber/jade, that way we both get compensated for our choices before the update.

But even if ANet was generous enough to think along those lines, the ungrateful players that we are, some of those who would then be rewarded with amber/jade would probably complain that when they donated their faction, the amber/jade was worth x amount, much more than it is now (now it's only worth about 100-300 gold). Amber and jade just aren't worth that much now. Your "losses" from such a design change are probably relatively minimal now (maybe overall a good sum, but relatively considering the time and effort involved with generating that sum compared to the time and effort generating that relative faction is probably trivial). If amber and jade were worth a lot, that perceived unfairness could be seen as being more painful.

The new Luxon/Kurzick skills are a gift. You don't deserve it. Based on the design approach, you may have an advantage. Argue the scope of the advantage that perhaps is appropriate if ANet was generous enough to make the gift more widely available. I get the impression you're arguing that if ANet is being generous to others, you deserve a bigger gift.

ANet should just take these toys away. When kids are fighting over a toy and can't figure out a way to share, best thing to do is take it away.

Neo Nugget · Jun 18, 2007, 04:57 PM // 16:57

but people said theyy should get amber because they didnt donate before, well people who got faction for amber didnt get any benifit from the faction to their guild.

greenthumb · Jun 18, 2007, 06:56 PM // 18:56

Just in case it's not clear, these new Luxon/Kurzick skills have nothing to do with earlier choices made by players...zero, zilch.

The new Luxon/Kurzick skills are gifts. No one made any choices based on these gifts. Those who seem to perceive some entitlement to these skills...you may have a claim with respect to the titles and advantage in title ranks, etc., but not the skills, and not to amber or jade.

The design issue for ANet in releasing these new skills is how to scale their effectiveness, similar to the Sunspear PvE skills and how they scale with ranks in the Sunspear title. They arbitrarily selected those Kurzick/Luxon titles.

Personally, as evidenced by the discussion here, I don't think that was a wise approach. The fairest approach would've been a new title track. Everyone would perceive and acknowledge the novelty of the new benefit, and there would be no complaints about the undeserved advantage one group has over another.

It's a mess ANet did make, and whatever they decide to do, they need to address it. Whatever it is, the sooner the better as players start acting and relying on the information that has been provided already.

Niila · Jun 18, 2007, 07:01 PM // 19:01

Yep, it would be quite nice to see dev to reply this thread and tell what they think about this issue.

Vilaptca · Jun 18, 2007, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Risky Ranger

I totally agree, people who were looking to make money were only thinking of themselves. Those who donated to a guild were not only thinking of themselves, if they now get the title it is a reward for not being selfish.

Quite of number of these "selfish", "greedy", people, were just playing the game wisely.

Why would anyone in their right mind WASTE their faction towards an alliance that has no chance of owning a town. Your reward for donating towards the alliance was a title.

Our only other choice was amber. We didn't have scrolls before this. We didn't have the PvE skills.

It was A or B. Many people choose the most logical one at the time. And now apparently we are greedy and selfish.

I wish some of you could read, or actually would read posts like this.

We do not care about the title. You can keep your title. We just want the skills. Which should not have been based off this title track.

I have lost out on a year's worth of time to achieve this title, which I now must grind out everyday if I ever want to see these skills. You've lost out on nothing.

I am not opposed to giving people who donated towards their alliance amber. They deserve it. They've spent countless hours working on one of the most worthless titles in the game (until now).

Anyways, something needs to be changed. Both sides need to be rewarded. Both sides deserve the skills. Why hasn't ANet seen this or done something about it....its beyond me. Why they haven't even replied here is disheartening....I have a feeling we will be ignored on this.

greenthumb · Jun 18, 2007, 07:11 PM // 19:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vilaptca

Anyways, something needs to be changed. Both sides need to be rewarded. Both sides deserve the skills. Why hasn't ANet seen this or done something about it....its beyond me. Why they haven't even replied here is disheartening....I have a feeling we will be ignored on this.

Just something to keep in mind, they just started their workday about 3 hours ago. Just because something has been brewing over the weekend, they at least need some time to meet and discuss the issues with the appropriate people when they are in the office. Patience.